I'm not a supporter of public schooling or home schooling; both practices have negative and positive aspects. How one chooses to educate one's children is a personal choice. However, I am curious. Why would you assume that socialization in a public school environment would mean that your kids would become clones of every other child in their generation?

Well, "clones" is a bit of hyperbole. My point is that I don't like the way kids who go through an institutional school experience come out with many of the same mannerisms, ideas, etc -- conformity in certain things (clothes, likes and dislikes, attitudes) is paramount in large groups of young people, and it shows. Homeschooled children are noticeably different from their institutionally-schooled peers because they don't pick up the common speech patterns etc. And I like that.

Look here Rachel, where do you expect your children to experience modern socialized life's many "firsts"?

Many if not most "normal" kids get their "firsts" at the local government school (like I did).

After all, life's not complete until you've had your first pass through a metal detector, your first gang violence experience, your first ridiculing of what once was traditional American virtue, your first opportunity to purchase illegal drugs, your first clothing or food item stolen, your first time completely on your own without help as some more socialized peer of yours twists your arm behind your back until you lick his shoe bottom, your first opportunity to learn about and practice safe s e x the same day, your first brush with the reality that sports are more important than anything academic, your first introduction to the reality that many government employees see themselves, rather than your parents, as your proper guide and guardian, your first inkling that many Mommies and Daddies want a new car or better cable service more than they want you to grow up right. I could go on, but aren't those enough reasons to stop denying your kids the benefits of government schooling and forced socialization? After all, you are paying for the program with your taxes, and society is going so very well, don't you want your kids to get on board?

What a sad experience T had in public school. I can understand T's disdain for it. There are wonderful schools in this country, though, so don't be disheartened. Education, however it is administered, is greatly influenced by parents' participation in it. Some public schools are wonderful places for little minds to grow, socially and academically. These are usually school with very active Parents' Associations. Parents cannot abandon their children to public education. They need to be partners with the schools in learning and socialization. I'm happy with my child's experience in our neighborhood (literally at the end of our street) elementary school, but I'm not optimistic about middle school. Heh, I may end up home schooling too!

Actually, most of the things T mentioned in his comment are pretty universal to the school experience; they don't just happen to some kids. (and how healthy is an environment, even for the kids who AREN'T being mistreated, where you either take part in bullying, ignore it, or become a victim of it?)

Schools don't allow the level of involvement that I'd want with my kids, frankly, which is a large part of the reason I homeschool: I want to be involved in every level of my children's upbringing, and when I hand the reins over to someone else in one area or another, I want it to be on our family's timetable, and not on that of the government school system.

I must disagree with your statement, "Most of the things T mentioned in his comment are pretty universal; they just don't happen to some kids." Universal means all encompassing. Not all students in all schools have such horrific experiences. You may be surprised to hear that kids in public schools today are learning about bullying and how to prevent themselves and others from being victimized. I've seen kids' positive reactions to these programs. I've also seen teachers who fostered a sense of teamwork and comraderie amongst their students and in that way precluded bullying behaviors. My child has been enriched by these educators. I can more clearly understand your terror of public schooling now, but the basis for your thinking doesn't mirror the reality: There are good schools with excellent environments. Home schooling can be a fine choice. Public education can also be a good choice.

Karen, I'm glad to hear that schools are making a better effort to combat bullying these days -- which is understandable considering the recent tragedies in Columbine, Paducah, etc. However, kids being kids and teachers being unable to catch everything -- you know it still goes on. Maybe not as much (and hey, that's good) but the kids who will join in the camaraderie and teamwork fostered by their teachers aren't the ones who make kids dread recess. Speaking of which, my grade school and junior high experiences make T's look really pleasant, so I know what I'm talking about here. The vast majority of emotional bullying happens without teachers ever finding out about it, for the simple reasons that [a] faculty isn't everywhere and [b] the bullied student who "tattles" gets it far, far worse. I don't imagine human nature or school staffing has changed that much in twenty years. My brother is a teacher in our local high school, and I asked him not long ago if it was any better than it had been for kids on the social fringe. He laughed. No, it's not any better. And this is a school district so "good" that people move across our state to enroll their children in it.

But bullying isn't the only thing T brought up. Peer pressure on children is immense. Kindergarteners learn the birds and the bees from their schoolmates within the first two weeks of school. Kids learn to copy their friends and to dismiss their parents' guidance on everything from what brands of shoes are worthwhile, to when it's a good idea to have s e x with your boyfriend. Again, just not an environment where I want my kids to spend the majority of their waking hours. (and the social scene is only a small part of the reason I homeschool my kids. I can't remember if I've done an in-depth post on our reasons for that decision -- I'll have to look through my archives and find out, and if I haven't, I'll see if I can get one written and posted before we start school in two weeks).

I thank you for your noncombative tone throughout this discussion. It can be hard to disagree in print without seeming disrespectful; I hope I've managed to keep a friendly tone as well as you have.

I don't have children so I don't know how my opinion matters in this discussion (most people with kids don't really care what childless people think, but I know Rachel is a bit more openminded than most). I personally think the public school system is crap. I've been there and know many others who have children in elementary school, middle school and high school. They hate it too. I don't know anyone who actually thinks that the public school system (at least in California) is any good. Each person I have spoken with who has children wished they had the time and what they perceive as needed (intelligence, patience, etc)to homeschool themselves.

I live in a very metropolitan area with hundreds and hundreds of schools (I inadvertantly work for LAUSD) and I see how crappy our schools are. I see the kids shooting each other after school, I see the fat girl getting made fun of, I see the eleven-year old girl lighting a cigarette as she leaves the school grounds with her other smoking friends so she'll look older. I see how program after program is being cut because there is no funding.

Now, in a rural community like Rachel lives in, you might not have your gang violence but you for sure have jock bullying and girls snickering in the corner at the boy with pimples. You also have peer pressure. In a small town, what else is there to do (if you aren't into sports and art/music nature) besides getting high and picking on people?

I also agree with the fact that children do end up emmulating their peers. They pick up horrible, foreign habits that have nothing to do with the way you want to raise them. I personally would rather have my kids grow up to be just like me than just like their friends. I understand obviously they have their own personality and grow into their own character. However, kids are very impressionable and I want to be the one to control what my kids are exposed to. Not Mrs. Brandys or the yard duty teacher or Craig, the dreamy blonde boy in second period.

It is true that as a child enters their adolescent years they will start rolling their eyes and talking back, regardless if they are homeschooled or not, but swift and fair discipline by loving parents will stamp that out faster than it would if they had a bunch of punk kids at school feeding their minds with all kinds of crap. (The same goes for watching television, movies, reading magazines, etc.) "But Mom! Sandy's mother lets her stay up as long as she wants!"

All in all things are not like they used to be. There is no longer one school house in each town that all the kids go to together, where everyone knows everyone and looks out for everyone. That may be in some small towns (Smaller than your town, Rachel...if that's conceivable), but it's not the norm. When it comes down to it, your kids are your kids. Not the government's. It is the parent's responsibility to be completely involved in every aspect of their children's lives. Subjectively on every level. What better way than to homeschool them?

I know this comment is long and might seem blundering and fumbled but I tried very hard to be concise and understandable. I hope I succeeded.

Oh yeah, the point of the discussion was originally on socialization. Just because someone choses to homeschool, doesn't mean they hide their child away from life in a dark closet like in Stephen King's "Carrie."

There are lots of programs you can involve your kids in, church activities, girl/boy scouts, musical instrument classes. There are neighbors, your friend's children, etc. There are plenty other more positive socialization techniques than public schooling. Rachel is right, school should not be about socializing. It's about learning. Children are not capable of emotionally handling a "social circle" and should not be placed in such a situation. Talk about trying to grow up too fast. (I hope this comment didn't seem too confrontational...I didn't mean it to be and I really hate being censored. I understand if I have to be, I guess).

Ok, one more thing. 2002 National Survey of Students Grades 5–12, Families and Work Institute says that sixty-six percent of youth are teased at least once a month, and nearly one-third of youth are bullied at least once a month. An estimated 160,000 children miss school every day out of fear of attack or intimidation by other students. I know it was a few years ago, but not much has changed since then. It won't ever completely go away because there are always going to be parents who abuse their children emotionally and physically. Bullies breed bullies and teaching the children isn't going to stop it. The parents need to be taught to raise their kids better.

Gentle Rachel,

How kind of you to thank me for simply being polite. Yes, you have also maintained a friendly tone and I'm quite grateful for that. I read your blog because your ideas are often very different than my own (maybe even opposite), yet expressed clearly and with an overriding theme of love for your family and your God. I admire your devotion and am often inspired by it.

Let me tell you more about the anti-bullying programs. Kids aren't expected to "tattle." They're taught to stand up for one another in nonviolent ways. For example, if you notice someone bullying someone, even someone you may not know, you and your friends should silently stand next to that person and together walk away. There are other techniques, too. All this makes me hopeful for the future of our schools.

It is enticing to think I could control my child's education by home schooling, but there is so much my son has learned in the community of his little school that I wouldn't have been able to teach him. His unusual hearing loss would have gone undetected. (Our pediatrician didn't discover this-- the school nurse did.) His subsequent reading difficulties were addressed by experts, and now he reads above grade level. He also enjoys going to school.

The other negative aspects you mentioned (disregarding parents' guidance, copying peers) are troublesome, but less likely to affect kids whose families are intact and loving. About the birds and bees thing-- be wary of your kids' friends! My young nephew got his s e x ed from his next door neighbor's son!

Good parenting and homes filled with lovingkindness are most key in raising kids.(Ah, but you know that!)

By the way, I also love your photos. I think you must live in the most beautiful place on earth.

Well said, Rachel and T. My sentiments are heartily on your side of the discussion--and for what it's worth, not just my sentiments, but my research, too. My time in grad school was largely spent on researching both homeschooling and individuals' experiences with public schooling. Everything you wrote was borne out in my studies.

Rachel, if you haven't already read it, you may appreciate this article originally published in The Harvard Crimson: http://www.theamericanscene.com/pubs/thc31201.html

Jenn, we recently moved from California, so I hear you! The school my girls attended was 98% hispanic. There was a lot of racism against the white children, and the hispanic teachers did a large part of the bullying. I actually saw two teachers purposely turn their heads away, on the playground, when a white child was getting "jumped" under their watch.

I also read a news article this morning that said, in California testing, the statewide average was 42% passing. Some districts/schools are in the 50%-60% and some are down in the 30%s or lower.

I'm with Karen. There are good experiences in public schools as well as bad ones (same for private and charter schools). I went well before the anti-bullying programs she speaks of, and I would have been a perfect target: very small, geeky, bright, not great social skills. Yet the closest I ever got to bullying was a few idle threats made by one person in 7th grade. In the main, my experience was very good, and I think it was much better than if my particular parents had homeschooled me, in particular. (Actually, not strictly true. Mom would have educated me better than the schools did, through maybe fourth grade, but our minds work differently enough and our interests are different enough, that I was better off in school after that.)

I've seen homeschooling that left me aghast because it just seemed like an excuse for a kid who didn't want to go to school (a high-school girl with no supervision during the school day) and homeschooling that gave the kids an education that I only wish I'd had, better than any school I've ever heard of. I don't think homeschooling is a universal answer. But it certainly ought to be an available choice.

Incidentally, I live in a state with lots and lots of homeschoolers. We just heard our standardized test scores have gone way up, even though our spending per student is some of the lowest in the US. Now, it's possible that our state is just spending very wisely, but somehow .... I doubt it. I think homeschooling is very likely to be a major factor in that improvement.

Hey, Hindsfeet! I know exactly what you mean! The population in the schools (non-private) are largely Latino and there is much racism against all the other children that are not of that decent. Latino against African-American, Latino against Caucasian, etc. I'm not racist on any level, but sometimes I get the feeling some of these kids are being raised to think this way and it seems to be encouraged in school as well. As I mentioned before I sort of work for LAUSD (I used the word inadvertently and realize that it was completely a grammatical error)...anyways, I was at a school in Sylmar today, it was totally Latino, even the teachers were mostly Latino and although the children seemed particularly well behaved today (I was there for about three hours and was in every class), the teachers were total jerks! One was drunk, one was verbally abusive, most ignored children's pleas for help...It was terrible! I've seen this sort of thing before in other schools, as much as teachers being physically abusive (which was reported immediately). I don't know how these people get their jobs. I understand teaching a large class of kids can be stressful, but these classes had one or two aids and they still couldn't handle it. Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. I remember a teacher my sister had in second grade once taped two students to a chair with duck-tape. She wasn't fired. No, I think I'd be much more comfortable teaching my children at home.

Here's a link on the issue: http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000068.asp

Or, if my tags work, click here.

Well, I read the article linked above. I love language and good writing, so reading this piece was painful for me. I would expect the writer to support homeschooling, but not with hazy logic like "...Actions by public students rarely have consequences, as discipline is lax and passing from grade to grade is automatic. The students are not really prepared to operate in the home (family) or the workplace, which comprise a major part of the "real world" after graduation." Come on. This kind of rhetoric made me wary of the subsequent "statistics" quoted by the writer. It is, unfortunately, possible to make numbers speak to one's argument. I'm wondering if that's not the case here.

Homeschooling can be a fine choice, and public education can also be a fine choice. It's not necessary to demonize public education in order to support homeschooling.

Dichroic raised an interesting issue about passing the students from grade to grade regardless of the level the student has or hasn't achieved. I remember a student in highschool who was allowed to graduate even though he could barely read because he was eighteen. I have seen a lot of programs develop over the years because they have discovered that a lot of kids have learning disabilities. Even in college, there are special classes for these people. They are taught differently because they learn differently and through that they are able to develop their various skills. So there's one plus for public schools I guess.

What a fascinating discussion, and so polite. :) I really have mixed feelings about the whole thing and actually have been thinking about this all week, since it was posted. I guess I am sort of thinking the same way Karen and Dichroic are: that homeschooling is great for some people, and public school is great for some people. LAUSD seems to be a special case -- yes, it's terrible, yes, it's something like 75% hispanic, and yes I would not send my child there. In fact, friends of ours moved out of the SF Valley to Colorado so their young daughter would not be in CA schools. But not all public schools are like that. And not all of us get beat up regularly, or made fun of. On the flip side, not all homeschooled kids get a good education or learn to deal with their peers in a good way. Just as not all public school teachers seem to be qualified (although all of the teachers I know in real life seem to be very dedicated to teaching their charges and doing a good job at it), not everyone is qualified to home-school either, I don't think. Rachel seems to be doing a great job with her children and more power to her.

I read the article posted by Amy, and these quotes leaves me a bit puzzled: "They relate regularly with adults and follow their examples rather than the examples of foolish peers," follwed by "Practically, homeschoolers generally overcome the potential for "isolation" through heavy involvement in church youth groups, 4H clubs, music and art lessons, Little League sports participation, YMCA, Scouts, singing groups, activities with neighborhood children, academic contests (spelling bees, orations, creative and research papers), and regular involvement in field trips." Here's my question. This just sounds like Good Parenting to me -- making sure your child associates with other children that share your values, ideals, etc. So if your local school (or charter school, or religion-based school) shares those values, why not send the child(ren) to such a school? Like Karen said, a lot of this has to do with parental involvement, no matter what the educational setting.

I look forward to your post about your reasons for homeschooling. I am learning a lot here.